Why when we search for the components of a belief or state do we deconstruct it into categories of emotion? Are emotions the most efficient substance to work with?
Is it not just as valid to look for other perceptual building blocks (and mixtures thereof)such as body position, core phrase underpinning the belief, respiration etc?
Also why are we only looking to balance states? What about balancing identities or concepts such as self/other, past/ future, time, space, distance, etc?
Might even be that by balancing some of these other overly human perceptions we could enter new areas of the‘one flexible conciousness’ Tom dreamt up.
Anyone want to play?
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 3, 2008 at 8:08 AM
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caputmartem
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Quote:
Why when we search for the components of a belief or state do we deconstruct it into categories of emotion? Are emotions the most efficient substance to work with?
Is it not just as valid to look for other perceptual building blocks (and mixtures thereof)such as body position, core phrase underpinning the belief, respiration etc?
Why? Because that won't get the same results as the 3D mind
Quote:
Also why are we only looking to balance states? What about balancing identities or concepts such as self/other, past/ future, time, space, distance, etc?
Might even be that by balancing some of these other overly human perceptions we could enter new areas of the‘one flexible conciousness’ Tom dreamt up.
It's a self help technique not a way to change reality.
Etienne
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 4, 2008 at 4:28 AM
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jamesc
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Are emotions the most efficient substance to work with?
Yes they are.
There the only thing you can work with.
Quote:
What about balancing identities or concepts such as self/other, past/ future, time, space, distance, etc?
The identity is a RESULT of the state/emotion. It comes afterwards
The way you place an identity on yourself is by have some form of feeling/emotion/state first.
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self/other, past/ future, time, space, distance, etc?
I dont understand what you mean hear. Can you give an example? are you talking about fitting these in to the process?
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Might even be that by balancing some of these other overly human perceptions
WHat your talking about hear is balacing the symptoms of somthing. and your not getting rid of a problem. Can you give an example of were you think this might be a better method so to illustrate your point.
but most 'building blocks' are actually clusters of out of balance states if you look closer at them
Quote:
one flexible conciousness’ Tom dreamt up.
I think its a much better model than the one that is offered by anyone else.
the UC / C mind is pretty stupid anyways.
Thanks
James
[/quote]
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 4, 2008 at 8:16 AM
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oldbill4823
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Why are emotions the only thing you can work with?
For example, when I examine various personal states I find that they have particular physical postures and muscular/skeletal alignments. These are associated with states. If I change elements of the body positions the state tends to change itself automatically. In principle this is very similar to 3d minds drivers. Now I’m not saying that this is more effective. All I’m questioning is that when it is possible to identify and manipulate so many elements apparent during a state, why do we only focus on emotions?
Looking at this same question from a different angle;
What is it about working with emotions that make this process so effective?
When emotional drivers get balanced through 3d mind process they seem to hold their new shape. They are not elastic and do not spring back 2 hours or one week later.(Like with many change processes) They seem to act more like mouldable clay. I find this really really weird.
Why is this the case? Is it something to do with the process, or a quality inherent with emotions? Is this quality only limited to emotions?
Really interested to hear your thoughts
Andy
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 4, 2008 at 10:31 AM
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caputmartem
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I am not going to argue which comes first, emotions or physical postures. That's like the chicken and the egg discussion for me. But try this pick a situation which would frighten you then first try changing your posture and notice your response. Then break from the situation do a 3D mind change and go into the situation and notice your response and then compare them.
The reason the 3D mind change sticks is because most other processes focus on an ideal and often over exaggerated state. Try staying super excited for a few hours, it’s tiring and almost impossible. Look at it like this most self help techniques are like trying to loose weight by running at your fastest, 3D mind is more like taking a walk or jogging every day. With the first approach you might hold it out for a few days but eventually you’re body is not going to be able to deal with the unnatural state that you try to put it in and you’re going to crash. With the second approach it’s easier, you’re doing something that your body is already familiar with.
It’s not about opposites, not about black or white, not about fear or confidence. It’s about balancing 2 states so that you can access your reactive and creative adaptive at the same time so you can generate creativity and movement.
Etienne
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 6, 2008 at 10:30 AM
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TomVizzini
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Why when we search for the components of a belief or state do we deconstruct it into categories of emotion? Are emotions the most efficient substance to work with?
Is it not just as valid to look for other perceptual building blocks (and mixtures thereof)such as body position, core phrase underpinning the belief, respiration etc?
Also why are we only looking to balance states? What about balancing identities or concepts such as self/other, past/ future, time, space, distance, etc?
Might even be that by balancing some of these other overly human perceptions we could enter new areas of the‘one flexible conciousness’ Tom dreamt up.
Anyone want to play?
The answer to this is simple. All the things you mention are the results of combinations of emotions.
When you start examining the concepts you mention you get in to such self examination that you enter a never ending process.
All those other things you mention spring from the seeds of the emotions that are driver those beliefs and behaviors.
Tom
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 6, 2008 at 10:34 AM
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TomVizzini
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Why are emotions the only thing you can work with?
For example, when I examine various personal states I find that they have particular physical postures and muscular/skeletal alignments. These are associated with states. If I change elements of the body positions the state tends to change itself automatically. In principle this is very similar to 3d minds drivers. Now I’m not saying that this is more effective. All I’m questioning is that when it is possible to identify and manipulate so many elements apparent during a state, why do we only focus on emotions?
Andy
Hi Andy,
You really answered you own question. If I take a newborn infant and change their body posture...it will not change their states. That is because the posture is a learned anchor that is associated to a state.
The other thing it this. Lets say you have a happy posture. You also have a sad posture. How would you balance 2 postures?
How would you balance 2 respiration patterns?
To me it is not a chicken /egg problem. My take is this. ALL behavior and belief is driven by emotion. It follows our evolutionary path and is at teh core of every successful change.
Have fun
Tom
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 6, 2008 at 12:45 PM
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jwoodin2
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.... My take is this. ALL behavior and belief is driven by emotion. It follows our evolutionary path and is at teh core of every successful change...
Well we may go around in circles here, but I would like to offer a comment...
On one level I would agree completely with your statement: we do what we do, and we think what we think because it *feels* right (or at least consistent) to us. No argument there.
But I think underneath all of that is a bedrock structure of core beliefs that set a context for everything in our lives. I would suggest that every emotion that we experience is a result of what that structure looks like.
And my take on 3D mind is that you are (sneakily) changing this belief structure through playing with the drivers. You are getting straight to beliefs when you ask questions like "what kind of person..." & "what would have to be true..." or "what gets in the way of that".
I think that for a perfectionist to be able to laugh at themselves or inject a little humor into making mistakes, they are going down to their core and changing their fundamental belief that they must be perfect.
If I have an emotional reaction to something, I will look at the underlying belief that causes me to react like that. Any emotion is generated by my beliefs and how I interpret my experience. Any beliefs that don't serve me, or that generate emotions that don't serve me, I can examine, alter or even discard.
The funny thing is, I assumed that the 3DMind was engineered as the simplest way to make changes in those beliefs. I am surprised to hear that you view it differently.
Just another view,
~John
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 6, 2008 at 1:47 PM
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eskills
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If I have an emotional reaction to something, I will look at the underlying belief that causes me to react like that. Any emotion is generated by my beliefs and how I interpret my experience. Any beliefs that don't serve me, or that generate emotions that don't serve me, I can examine, alter or even discard.
The funny thing is, I assumed that the 3DMind was engineered as the simplest way to make changes in those beliefs. I am surprised to hear that you view it differently.
Just another view,
~John
Here is where we are seeing things differently. You view seems to be that beliefs drive emotions.
I take is one step back....and it is the most simple Emotions drive beliefs.
Beliefs are held together by an emotional construct. So emotions construct beliefs. Beliefs drive responses.
So it is easier to change a cluster of beliefs by changing the emotional recipe for just one.
This of course has nothing to do with body posture, breathing, pictures or anything else. They are all just responses.
Have fun
Tom
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 6, 2008 at 5:59 PM
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jwoodin2
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Here is where we are seeing things differently. You view seems to be that beliefs drive emotions.
I take is one step back....and it is the most simple Emotions drive beliefs.
Beliefs are held together by an emotional construct. So emotions construct beliefs. Beliefs drive responses.
Well, I can't think of any emotions that don't have a "belief" or some kind of presupposition at it's base. At the very least: good/bad, right/wrong, etc.
And I would certainly agree that *limiting* beliefs are created through emotional constructs. But I would add that they too come from some set of core beliefs about whatever caused the emotion.
I've burned down all of my emotionally constructed beliefs (at least almost, some things do pop up from time to time). That leaves limitless possibilities. And nothing to "believe in" except what I choose to accept.
Oh, and Gravity. It's always good to believe in Gravity.
~John
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 7, 2008 at 11:57 AM
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TomVizzini
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"Well, I can't think of any emotions that don't have a "belief" or some kind of presupposition at it's base. At the very least: good/bad, right/wrong, etc."
Hi John,
An example of an emotion not driven by belief would be any of the 4Fs. Primal reaction emotions have no beliefs. They are just reactions to stimulus without thought.
One example....lust....Lust makes people do things that are counter to every one of their beliefs. What happens then is that people will adjust their belief to fit whatever behavior the emotion of lust drives them to do. So in the heat of the moment....some will set aside everything they know about safe sex and dive right in by rationalizing why it is OK this time.
Have fun....safely
Tom
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 9, 2008 at 3:39 AM
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jwoodin2
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Tom said:
An example of an emotion not driven by belief would be any of the 4Fs. Primal reaction emotions have no beliefs. They are just reactions to stimulus without thought.
It seems to me there is still some belief structure that must be present. I don't have a fear of puppies because there's no perceived danger to me. No one walks down the street and lusts after a mailbox (at least I hope not), they lust after that which they believe is desirable.
(I saw a show about sexual fetishes once... did you know that there are people that find balloons to be extremely sexual? The funny thing is, they break down into sub-groups: those that pop them, and those that wouldn't dream of popping them. Aren't people funny?)
~John
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 9, 2008 at 1:32 PM
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jamesc
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>> they lust after that which they believe is desirable
See that isnt a belif, it just a reaction they see some thing they desire it. a direct primal brain reaction
No argument that this is a shortcut pathway in the brain, but it still passes thru a belief environment that has been constructed by the person (either unintentionally or by design). You have to have made a lot of judgements before you designate that something is desireable to you.
The point is, when you really identify your fundamental beliefs, you can decide if they really serve you or not. You can use the 3DMind technique to chuck out beliefs that you don't want, and put in beliefs you want instead.
Example: you posted about "Getting over the shit relationships". You have a lot of beliefs and assumptions in your post regarding what a good relationship is and why your relationships were shitty. What if you pulled out those beliefs, and said "they're not really true, they're just my projection"?
What if you adopted a belief like: "that girl wasn't the outcome I wanted, but was just a crazy experience"? Or: Every girl teaches me about myself and what I want, so it's all ok"? Or even: "all life is just an experience, just keep learning and moving toward what you want"?
What if you could remove all of the fear, judgment, and disempowering thoughts from your life? Just examine that belief environment and you can change your reality.
~John
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 10, 2008 at 4:36 PM
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reler6
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I have been watching this discussion and finally feel compelled to jump in and have my two penny's worth ...
Jamesc said
Quote:
>> they lust after that which they believe is desirable
See that isnt a belif, it just a reaction they see some thing they desire it. a direct primal brain reaction
and John said
Quote:
No argument that this is a shortcut pathway in the brain, but it still passes thru a belief environment that has been constructed by the person (either unintentionally or by design). You have to have made a lot of judgements before you designate that something is desireable to you.
With respect, this is just rationalisation. To my way of thinking, Tom's point about 4F reactions is right on the money, but since sex and affairs of the heart are so layered with rationalisation, perhaps it's not the best example to choose when discussing with someone in a position that is as strongly fortified position as yours, John !
Let's try Fight/Flight instead. If you're walking down the street and somebody jumps on you from a great height, there just isn't time so that your reaction "passes thru a belief environment that has been constructed by the person (either unintentionally or by design)" before you respond.
The stimulus goes straight to the primal part of the brain and you either run like hell, or if cornered, fight like hell. Or, if you're with him, stand behind Etienne whilst he beats the crap out of them
It's only afterwards that the rational mind will start to layer beliefs over the scenario. They come second, they are constructed out of experience (see the discussion on the list regarding the recording of Bandler, specifically, how his client got her phobia).
It's that post-event rationalisation: why did you vote for that candidate when you told the pollster you would vote for the other one ? Because even though you *knew* his/her policies/track record/whatever are better, you just *feel* better with the other one.
It's actually the same with sex - yeah, we can all dream up our "belief" about what or who is "desirable" or "right" or "proper" (insert adjective of your choice), but as Tom says, in the heat of the moment, logic often looks the other way and we behave from the reactive brain.
That's my view anyway.
Have fun
Roger
aka reler6
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 10, 2008 at 10:28 PM
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jwoodin2
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Roger said:Let's try Fight/Flight instead...<snip>...The stimulus goes straight to the primal part of the brain and you either run like hell, or if cornered, fight like hell. Or, if you're with him, stand behind Etienne whilst he beats the crap out of them
Good example.
You have a stimulus - an attacker.
A trained fighter (Etienne?) will have a different response from chicken little. Why?
What exists in the fighter's brain that allows him to respond that way? There is something there that allows him to use his training or experience or confidence that the other guy does not have. Whatever you call it (a belief, a pathway, an environment, or even a feeling) it is there in one guy and not the other.
What if you take the untrained guy, pull out his fight/flight response, and play with it a little. You can't inject kung-fu training like in The Matrix, but you can inject a lot of positive things in there (better perception, ability to find resources, etc). Throw in knowledge of one or two simple strikes, and the untrained guy can now walk down the street with as much confidence as the black belt who had to train for years.
I think of this as someones belief system or environment. It's not real. It's in your head. You can change it to be whatever you want it to be.
Would you agree with this statement?:
Inside us we have created an environment that the world gets sorted through. You could call it a filter, but 'environment' describes it better because it is an all-encompassing reality.
Careful, its a trick question.
~John
Re: Thinking outside the 3d mind box
Posted On Feb 11, 2008 at 5:17 PM
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reler6
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Inside us we have created an environment that the world gets sorted through. You could call it a filter, but 'environment' describes it better because it is an all-encompassing reality.
Huh ?
Sorry, it's very late and I have had a very long day, but I don't understand the term "all-encompassing reality".
Quote:
Careful, its a trick question.
LOL.
I will get back to you on this John, but I am reallyy busy right now, so please be patient. Meanwhile, others must have an opinion here.
Later ...
Roger
aka reler6
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Emotions drive beliefs.
