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 The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Nov 30, 2007 at 11:46 AM |
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TomVizzini
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OK look at what we are learning.
The anticipation of pain is worse that the pain itself.
I want to look at this in a different way that some of you might be used to. I don't want to eliminate pain. That would be stupid. I want to redefine it.
For me, if something does not push my comfort zone it is a sign that I am not reaching my potential. If I work out one day and my muscles are not sore the next day I am disapointed that I wasted my time.
This is why motivation is bullshit. It never addresses the idea that pain is good! Pain is your friend. Pain is you leader. If there is no pain...then something is wrong.
Let me offer you this idea for today.
The victory is sweetest when the pain to get it was the highest. The reward is best when the risk was greatest.
I want you guys to transform into pain loving risk taking life grabbing maniacs!
So here is what I want you to do today. Pick something that you want to do that you have been avoiding doing because of the anticipation of pain. Then I want you to define exactly what kind og pain it is that is stopping you from doing it.
Have fun
Tom
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Nov 30, 2007 at 11:58 AM |
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rvicuna
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Quote:
I want you guys to transform into pain loving risk taking life grabbing maniacs!
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I don't know if I get you right, but, wouldn't that convert us in masochistics?
I would stand the idea of being willing to pass through pain if after that there is a reward, that reward would be my motivation.
In a sense I can interpret this as to rather to avoid pain, balance those negative paralysing reactions into something better suited.
anyway I'm willing to give a try, something I want to do is to pull one Derren Brown trick, like trying to sneak an embedded command onto someone I've distracted. Like when he makes people to accept a blank paper instead of money or to use a hand shake induction on those guys that approach you in the street to sell you stuff and start by offering your hand (you and Kim should know that huh?).
But I think they could caught me and would feel embarrassed and a failure. There is emotional pain there. So, my next step would be to think on this pain as you propose, hope to find the beliefs and drivers.
Cheers,
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Haz el bien sin mirar a quién.
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Nov 30, 2007 at 1:10 PM |
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jwoodin2
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Quote:
I want to look at this in a different way that some of you might be used to. I don't want to eliminate pain. That would be stupid. I want to redefine it.
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Interesting view...it's making me think.
So "pain" is just "feedback" I receive from the world. It's the meaning I attach to that feedback that I'm reacting to. If I stop attaching deep meaning to the feedback, it's not nearly such a big deal.
So it's all only feedback. Action and reaction. If I like the reaction, I'll keep doing the action. If I don't, I try a different action. It's the "pain" feedback that tells me if I'm on the right track. Kind of like driving blind down a highway. If I'm scraping against the guardrails, I've got to adjust a little and keep going. Full Speed Ahead!
Something like that?
So, what I've been avoiding: - starting a project that is technically a little beyond my skills.
The Pain that stops me: - don't feel ready
- don't feel equiped to handle all the unknowns
- so many unknowns
- so many things that can go wrong,
- no chance of getting it perfect
- fear of "failure"
- fear of judgement & criticism
Fuuuck. What a load of bullshit rattling around in the back of my head!
The stupid thing is that it can only fail if I don't get it done!
And no one is really going to judge this project, so WTF?
I'm literally going to get started right now. I'll stumble through. I know enough to start, and I can learn whatever I need to get it done. Full speed ahead!
~John
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Nov 30, 2007 at 2:16 PM |
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TomVizzini
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Quote:
I don't know if I get you right, but, wouldn't that convert us in masochistics?
I would stand the idea of being willing to pass through pain if after that there is a reward, that reward would be my motivation.
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OK here is the first response I have to this. I find it interesting that your first response is that something negative will happen. Then you change the whole idea into something that you can 'stand'.
You can do that but....it hasn't worked yet! I understand that this might be uncomfortable for you but you have to do it. Stop limiting yourself by what you are AFRAID MIGHT HAPPEN and just know that you can deal with that when you actually succeed.
Quote:
In a sense I can interpret this as to rather to avoid pain, balance those negative paralysing reactions into something better suited.
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No. The idea is this. Stop thinking of pain as a negative. It isn't. It is a message. That message means different things in different contexts. In the context of becoming someone who LIVES LIFE the message is that you are moving into wonderfully uncomfortable territory.
Quote:
anyway I'm willing to give a try, something I want to do is to pull one Derren Brown trick, like trying to sneak an embedded command onto someone I've distracted. Like when he makes people to accept a blank paper instead of money or to use a hand shake induction on those guys that approach you in the street to sell you stuff and start by offering your hand (you and Kim should know that huh?).
But I think they could caught me and would feel embarrassed and a failure. There is emotional pain there. So, my next step would be to think on this pain as you propose, hope to find the beliefs and drivers.
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I don't want you to go to any next step yet. I want to see what kinds of replies we get from other first.
Tom
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Nov 30, 2007 at 4:59 PM |
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khaymen1
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"So here is what I want you to do today. Pick something that you want to do that you have been avoiding doing because of the anticipation of pain. Then I want you to define exactly what kind og pain it is that is stopping you from doing it."
Ok Something I want to do but I avoid doing because of the anticipation of pain.
meeting beutiful women
Defining that pain
You know defining it seems to make me realize that it isn't really pain that I am fearing but just really not wanting to feel awkward and uncomfortable.
Then I guess afterward I don't want to feel stupid or embarrassed which will then allow me to feel upset. I think it is the belief that I'll look stupid or that I am stupid that is the most painful of all this. For this situation anyway.
Shane
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 1, 2007 at 9:04 AM |
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MichelPoque
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Quote:
Pick something that you want to do that you have been avoiding doing because of the anticipation of pain. Then I want you to define exactly what kind of pain it is that is stopping you from doing it. |
Some studying.
An anxious annoyed obligated feeling, the feeling of it's a chore and I want to avoid it.
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 1, 2007 at 9:04 AM |
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MichelPoque
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Quote:
Pick something that you want to do that you have been avoiding doing because of the anticipation of pain. Then I want you to define exactly what kind of pain it is that is stopping you from doing it. |
Some studying.
An anxious annoyed obligated feeling, the feeling of it's a chore and I want to avoid it.
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 1, 2007 at 11:46 AM |
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flushers03
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-Pick something that you want to do that you have been avoiding doing because of the anticipation of pain. Then I want you to define exactly what kind of pain it is that is stopping you from doing it.
This is hard to put into words. At first, I thought it was fear of getting hurt in some way, but as I work on defining it, it seems to be fear of losing control or something.
I had two phone calls to make. The first one I felt I had to make last night so I just forced myself to make it. It was a billing matter with my cable company. I got all angry and started shouting. I didn't need to. I'm sure the same result (positive and informative) would have been achieved if I had been calm.
The other call to my insurance company is to add a used car I'm buying to my insurance policy, but it won't become mine until I can show proof of insurance.
What they have in common is that I have attached a feeling of helpless importance to them, like, it would be a disaster if I fail to get the outcome of my task. I feel helpless, like, it is out of my control. The people on the other end of the phone have all the power and control to give me what I want or to withhold it, and I am helpless to get what I want if they say no. This is where the fear and pain comes from. As I reread this, I think the anger and yelling comes from trying to get some power to get what I want.
Crap! Do I have a lot of beliefs to work on or what? Or maybe not, would working on the helpless feeling correct the others? Is helpless a belief or driver in this case?
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
John Nelson
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John Nelson
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 1, 2007 at 12:54 PM |
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branimir
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"I want you guys to transform into pain loving risk taking life grabbing maniacs!"
There is nothing in this life that I want more than this. But I had a realization lately. This isnt gonna happen in one instance. I realized 3dmind is kinda like the ACCELERATOR DRIVER for life.
It doesnt work on its own. But if you make an effort to expand your comfort zone than all kinds of things that 3dmind can accelerate start to pop up. I always wanted to be someone who is very comfortable in social siatuations. Yet I didnt have enough experience on that to even work at a real problem with the 3dmind. So I guess I need to first get a job and have social interactions regularly to see where things arent going the way I want. Before that happens, all I do seems like working on hallucinations.
Anyways,
It is talking with a girl comfortably.
My fear was that I will lock real bad and afterwards the girl will tell behind my back that I am such a moron.
I actually got over it today. I first started meeting with some male friends of my dad whom I didnt know and got uncomfy there. Then I got over that uncomfort. Than I met a friend with his girlfriend. Than I got uncomfy around the girl but got over it. Than finally I started talking with a girl who was sitting on the next table. That was kinda cool.
I didnt observe whats going on in my head alot because frankly my goal is to first reach a certain level of social comfort with stability and consistency before I start using the 3dmind. Before that comfort level 3dmind doesnt seem to work, because I get caught up in my own bullshit and wonder around with my depression the whole day and that doesnt let me do anything WELL.
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 1, 2007 at 8:19 PM |
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reler6
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Quote:
Pick something that you want to do that you have been avoiding doing because of the anticipation of pain. Then I want you to define exactly what kind og pain it is that is stopping you from doing it. |
OK, for me, one example would be this: the pain would be “failure” - I don't reach my goal, which would result in loss of self-esteem and reinforce a negative self-image. Also, because time is finite, I would lose the time that I could spend “having fun” or doing something that was not “painful”.
And like I said elsewhere, I feel that I've put up with a lot of crap so far in my life, so I feel that I deserve to avoid “pain”.
Does that answer the question ?
Having said all that, it's difficult to argue with ideas like: Quote:
The victory is sweetest when the pain to get it was the highest. The reward is best when the risk was greatest. |
(Exits left to retire to bed with many thoughts raging in my mind ...)
Roger
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 1, 2007 at 8:23 PM |
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reler6
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Quote:
No. The idea is this. Stop thinking of pain as a negative. It isn't. It is a message. That message means different things in different contexts. In the context of becoming someone who LIVES LIFE the message is that you are moving into wonderfully uncomfortable territory. |
Wow ! I've suddenly realised - I just wrote that I feel like I've had plenty of crap to put up with for very many years.
But if what Tom writes above is true (and couple with what he wrote in his original post), does this mean that I am on the verge of the most monumental break-through ?
Seriously.
(Still confused though).
R.
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 1, 2007 at 8:36 PM |
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reler6
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Hi John,
Quote:
So "pain" is just "feedback" I receive from the world. It's the meaning I attach to that feedback that I'm reacting to. If I stop attaching deep meaning to the feedback, it's not nearly such a big deal. |
Your first sentence is kind of another version of the well known NLP aphorsim, "there's no such thing as failure, only feedback".
BUT, what if we substitute "anticipation of pain" in the quote above ? Do you then get "premature feedback" ? If so, maybe that makes the conclusions in the second & third sentences a bit of a nonsense, cos we don't actually really know the feedback until it happens !
Is Tom just saying that we're paralysed by what we've already convinced ourselves is going to be something that we can't cope with (but actually we probably can ! ? Tom ?
Gotta think about that one ...
Bed time ... zzz
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 2, 2007 at 11:58 AM |
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reler6
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Quote:
No. The idea is this. Stop thinking of pain as a negative. It isn't. It is a message. That message means different things in different contexts. In the context of becoming someone who LIVES LIFE the message is that you are moving into wonderfully uncomfortable territory. |
Reading this again, Tom, I understand the concept you describe perfectly. But to act as Devil's Advocate for a moment, one might ask "What's so wonderful about being uncomfortable ?".
Or is this one of those circular things ? In other words, if I am comfortable, I'm NOT living life fully ?
I realise that this is opening a real can of worms here: on the one hand, like I said before, I feel like I have had plenty of crap (thank you) and would like some better stuff now please. On the other hand, when I think of some of the things that others have dealt with and yet they have achieved (or even just survived) in spite of them, then I feel rather humbled.
I feel like this:
and that whatever I am banging my head against is some massive lesson, but I can't tell what it is !
Does that make any sense ?
Roger
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 2, 2007 at 6:17 PM |
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cbelling
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-Pick something that you want to do that you have been avoiding doing because of the anticipation of pain. Then I want you to define exactly what kind of pain it is that is stopping you from doing it.
Studying/learning a bunch of skills that I want to have.
What stops me is either the pain of failing to learn or the pain of it taking forever to actually be good at the skills. It also could be that I'm impatient and unwilling to put the time in to be good.
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 3, 2007 at 3:28 AM |
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rusty
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To go out selling and talking to people
Im scared of not knowing what to say and looking stupid
Maybe its something like i believe i don't know what im talking about
scared of been wrong
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 3, 2007 at 3:28 AM |
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rusty
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To go out selling and talking to people
Im scared of not knowing what to say and looking stupid
Maybe its something like i believe i don't know what im talking about
scared of been wrong
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 3, 2007 at 6:52 AM |
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tommalley
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Im going to
Approach jobs that are way beyond the salaries I would normally expect, and also sometimes above the level of skill I am currently at.
The Pain:
Is emotinal pain, The pain of getting it wrong. The pain of doing something that logically wouldn't make sense in conventional thinking. The fear of the looks on their faces when they wonder why Im there if I dont have what they are normally looking for. I like to get things right and have engineered my life around making ambigiouse responses so I can quickly jump on the right answer when it presents itself.
Interesting....
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Perhaps?
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 3, 2007 at 10:49 AM |
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caputmartem
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Mine is kind of stupid I was worried about going in a unknown classroom. I was afraid that there might still be a class and that I would embaress myself. I finally did push true it and didn't wait for others to go first.
Etienne
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 3, 2007 at 3:24 PM |
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jwoodin2
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Hi Roger,
Quote:
Your first sentence is kind of another version of the well known NLP aphorsim, "there's no such thing as failure, only feedback".
BUT, what if we substitute "anticipation of pain" in the quote above? Do you then get "premature feedback"? ....
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Been thinking about this over the weekend...
I guess I have taken the NLP feedback idea to heart, and found it useful.
As for your question, here's how I look at it. The "feedback" is by definition from an outside source: another person, my environment, life situations. It all tells me something about how I'm doing. And if I'm not getting what I want, that is a response to my behaviour (or lack of) so far. It's always on me, I'm just not putting the right key in the lock.
Then there's a whole class of "pain" that is generated internally by me. Your "anticipation of pain" would fall in this category. To me, that is not feedback (by definition!, but is my own interpretation of events. These interpretations are "painful", but in reality they are just shit I make up!
"I could never do that"
"People think such and such about me"
"I'm a failure because I'm not perfect"
All nonsense that I'm learning to reject.
When I stop attaching deep meaning to my results, life is a whole lot easier.
Just my $.02
~John
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 4, 2007 at 4:45 AM |
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phillc
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Quote:
The anticipation of pain is worse that the pain itself.
I want to look at this in a different way that some of you might be used to. I don't want to eliminate pain. That would be stupid. I want to redefine it.
For me, if something does not push my comfort zone it is a sign that I am not reaching my potential. If I work out one day and my muscles are not sore the next day I am disapointed that I wasted my time.
This is why motivation is bullshit. It never addresses the idea that pain is good! Pain is your friend. Pain is you leader. If there is no pain...then something is wrong.
Let me offer you this idea for today.
The victory is sweetest when the pain to get it was the highest. The reward is best when the risk was greatest.
I want you guys to transform into pain loving risk taking life grabbing maniacs!
So here is what I want you to do today. Pick something that you want to do that you have been avoiding doing because of the anticipation of pain. Then I want you to define exactly what kind og pain it is that is stopping you from doing it.
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Hey Tom!
This is great stuff. Very, very relevant to me at the moment.
I'm already a few steps ahead in the process.
A week ago I decided to ask one of my clients for an increase in what I get paid.
The idea of doing this triggered a massive amount of doubt, fear and pain. Writing the email to request the change was horrible.
It took 3 attempts to write - cutting it back from 3 pages of self-justification and over-explanation (one of my traits when I'm feeling fear / pain) down to 4 short, simple paragraphs.
I sent the email 4 days ago and started the nervous wait...
Yesterday, after 3 days of waiting with no response, I decided again to take action in spite of the pain, and called the client up directly to request an immediate discussion about it.
We talked it over and I received *everything* I asked for including a 60% rate increase.
To sum up:
I went through one hell of lot of fear & pain over the last 5 days to ask for this rate increase. Up until recently I would have decided against asking, given up part way through the "wait", or settled for considerably less in the negotiation.
And you're absolutely right - the level of pain I was prepared to go through was directly proportional to the level of payoff I received!
The best part is that this is a *significant* and permanent change to my identity.
Now that I'm earning this new rate it has become the new benchmark for what I'm "worth".
I'm already looking for the next significant goal I want to achieve very quickly that has pain. Something *really* scary that will have a huge payoff if I manage and get past that pain.
I'll keep you posted. 
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 4, 2007 at 10:13 AM |
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TomVizzini
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Quote:
[quote] Tom, I understand the concept you describe perfectly. But to act as Devil's Advocate for a moment, one might ask "What's so wonderful about being uncomfortable ?".
Roger |
OK let me turn this around on you. What is so wonderful about being comfortable?
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 4, 2007 at 3:04 PM |
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reler6
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Quote:
OK let me turn this around on you. What is so wonderful about being comfortable?
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I could see that one coming !
For me, "uncomfortable" has not always equated with progress/learning/being better in the world ... it's just been crap: fatigue, stress (to the point of impairing your health) and not really having a life. One specific example was "work", that four letter word. “Do more with less, or else”. You get the effects noted above. I was going to say if there are issues in the other areas of your life, that makes it worse, but for me, when I was on that treadmill, there wasn't really much else apart from spending time trying to recover for the next bout.
I know that there are all those quotes about "enduring", but they make me think of the old gag about the guy who came across another guy carefully slamming his head against a brick wall. Between hits, he said, "why are you doing that to yourself" and the guy looked at him and said, "Because it feels good when I stop !".
On the other hand, I know that it's unlikely that breakthroughs are ever made by sitting in a chair with a whisky in one hand, cigar in the other and just being "comfortable". As you say, "The victory is sweetest when the pain to get it was the highest. The reward is best when the risk was greatest."
Reading this back, I'm struck by something else - about the brick wall guy, I wrote "why are you doing that to yourself". For me, I'm in a position where I am actually out of that world and have the time and some resources to do what I want. So I ain't banging my head anymore, but I can't seem to get plan B going. I find that difficult - like I said, I start things but don't finish them. Maybe because I have a "butterfly mind" - interested in lots of different things and "deprived" for too long of the juice that makes life fun and eases the "pain" of being uncomfortable.
Poor me. 
Crap. 
Before you all slap me for being a self-pitying jerk, I gotta tell you this: in another thread here, Tom wrote about "The Secret of Crap". In it, he saysQuote:
Here is the TRUTH:
Life is easy if you do 2 simple things.
1 Make a plan
2 Follow the plan |
Well that resonated with me and today, I printed that post off and took it with me to re-read whilst I had a long coffee and a hard think. (Well, it was hot tea actually Tom).
I realise that since I "got out", this is precisely what I have NOT done. So I have been drifting, enjoying the lack of "pain" but without a clear path to follow.
I then went on to sketch out (at a high level) what my plan might be.
It's a little daunting cos I am prone to being sidetracked very easily, tempted away to be “comfortable” which to me seems like a Good Thing.
Not sure if or how I'm going to do it. I guess, one piece at a time.
Breakthrough ?
Maybe ... end of ramble. Sorry.
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| Re: The pain....or is it? |
| Posted On Dec 6, 2007 at 1:37 PM |
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Tom396
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[quote]OK look at what we are learning.
The anticipation of pain is worse that the pain itself.
It sure is, especially, when your asked to give a speech.
So here is what I want you to do today. Pick something that you want to do that you have been avoiding doing because of the anticipation of pain.
I've been putting off joining toastmasters for some time anticipating the thought of public speaking.
Then I want you to defi | | |
