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 The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 10:00 AM |
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TomVizzini
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Matt Wrote:
> Hi Tom
>
> Interesting comments about the subconscious and unconscious. I am
> open to all ideas about the role of each, and even if they exist.
>
> I am a clinical hypnotherapist and although I have been taught in a
> certain way, I am more than willing to learn different methods.
> BAsically anything that can help me learn more and get the best
> results for my clients, then I am all ears.
>
> Is any of this covered in the DVDs I am getting at all? If not can
> you make some more posts about it?
Sure.....It is not on the DVDs and some of the DVDs are old enough to include references to the unconscious mind, which I no longer accept.
Through all the years of my study and research into hypnosis and other stuff I was always bothered by the idea that there was this separate mind.
It was often described as unconscious or subconscious. It was also given amazing powers like total infallible recall, super awareness, control of all body functions and so forth. I was enthralled with the idea of getting control of this powerful part of my mind.
I began running into a few problems with the theory of the unconscious.
The first was that the unconscious is a brilliant. If that was so then why did it screw so many people up? People had such destructive behaviors, phobias, diseases and anxieties.
Second was that the unconscious can recall everything you ever did....perfectly. If that was true them how come there are so many false memory cases generated from well meaning hypnotherapists?
Third was my irritation at constantly being told that it was not important that my conscious mind understood something and that my unconscious got it. Complete bull.
Fourth were the obvious misstatements that the unconscious mind controlled things like heartbeat and breathing. This would dismiss the entire autonomic nervous system.
This led me down and interesting path. to start down this path I decided to get rid of the idea that there was an unconscious or subconscious mind. Without that there was no ability to credit or blame anything on the unconscious mind. So if it was not that then what could it be?
I came up with 2 paths to follow.
The first was the study of altered states of consciousness rather than the idea of an all seeing unconscious. What I found was this. In order to access certain abilities that you had to enter identifiable altered states.
In order to read and retain information it is easier to define and direct an altered state that accesses that skill instead of thinking about turning it over to your unconscious mind.
These states hold the keys that open the door to skills like photo reading, rapport, accelerated health, awareness enhancement, self examination and behavior alteration.
So there is no mysterious and all powerful unconscious mind that controls these skills. It is a simple product of being taught to access the states that allow you to enjoy these skills.
The second path I followed was how to look at personal change without the idea that there was an unconscious mind that had a reason for the behaviors.
This led me to look at neuro science and the biological operation of the physical brain.
This was simplified for us when we met Dr. Ken. Ken showed us a very simple and easy to understand model of the brain that showed something amazing. It showed us how beliefs, states, behaviors and reactions were generated.
There was no mysterious little man or mind that was operating and keeping track of thousands of bits of information. Instead there was a simple reason for problems. There was a simple reason that some people succeeded while other people failed. There was a simple reason why some things got short lived results while other got none.
It boils down to one simple concept. That concept is that 2 parts of the brain come into play when it comes to behaviors and problems. They are the reactive part and the creative/adaptive part.
Problems occur when there is any disconnect between these 2 parts.
It is just that simple!
Reaction without thought is a problem.
Creation without movement is a problem
The key to any personal change or enhancement is to have a balance between these 2 parts of the brain.
There is no unconscious mind in this model.
This is the basis and foundation of the 3D mind process. It is what makes it so powerful.
I met Dr Ken in New York at a seminar I was presenting at. he approached us during a break and said he knew why the 3D Mind was working. So we went to lunch and Ken spent the next 2 hours opening the door that we had been banging on for 2 years.
That was 3 years ago.
What did this mean? Well first it meant that I could forget anything that did not have the result of generating a balanced condition for the brain.
That means any desensitization technique was out. Direct hypnotic command was out. Affirmations were out. Linguistic gymnastics were out. Re patterning was out. Anything that just gave someone a new reaction or pattern was out. Anchoring for personal change was out. Psychotherapy was out.
In other words, 95% of everything that I had spent 20 years learning was suddenly and shockingly....invalid.
The keyword for change was now "balance". It brought me back to some things that we had studied early on. What we were now looking at more closely resembled Chinese Medicine philosophy rather than anything else.
What was even better was that this model can conform to any other model and be utilized. You could use trance and the 3D mind together. It was not needed but it can be used.
The best part was this. Most people could learn to us the 3D Mind in one hour and start getting results.
All of this from taking one small step. That step was rejecting the model of the unconscious mind and looking for other explanations. We could not have gotten where we are while staying attached to the idea of an unconscious mind.
Yes there are things that are outside of our conscious awareness. That is why things like embedded commands and anchoring are powerful persuasion tools. That does not mean there is an unconscious MIND.
What I have found is this. Most models that I have found that are built on the premise that there is an unconscious mind seem to get very sporadic results.
I think it is time to re examine those models and see how they can be improved using real biology instead of unconscious mythology.
Have fun
Tom
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 10:07 AM |
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caputmartem
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Great post Tom, you should really get some traffic to this post.
The concept of balance has worked way better for me then trying to overpower problems. Which barely worked.
One other concept has got me a lot better results and that is breaking down the problem into smaller obstacles and then dealing with them one at a time.
Etienne
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 10:16 AM |
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TomVizzini
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Thanks,
I am glad you like it. I think it is the first time I ever put these idea together in one post.
Tom
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 10:37 AM |
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mattkendall
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Interesting stuff. I can't wait to get the 3D mind stuff and see what it is all about.
I can't really make much more comment until I have evaluated all of that because I am a hypnotist and we kind need an unconscious mind to be there in order to do our work.
As I said before I am open to everything and if I can find something that works better than what I am doing, then I am more than willing to learn about it.
Can't wait to get my stuff 
Matt
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 10:52 AM |
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TomVizzini
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Quote:
Interesting stuff. I can't wait to get the 3D mind stuff and see what it is all about.
I can't really make much more comment until I have evaluated all of that because I am a hypnotist and we kind need an unconscious mind to be there in order to do our work.
Matt |
I used to think the same way. I became dependent on the idea of an unconscious mind. Just for fun, imagine there was no unconscious mind and think about how you would use trance states without being depedent on the idea of an unconscious mind.
Have fun
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 11:17 AM |
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caputmartem
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I just tought of one question. How do you explain that embedded commands work while there is no subconcious?
Etienne
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 11:42 AM |
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TomVizzini
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Quote:
I just tought of one question. How do you explain that embedded commands work while there is no subconcious?
Etienne |
Here is a quote from the post
"Yes there are things that are outside of our conscious awareness. That is why things like embedded commands and anchoring are powerful persuasion tools. That does not mean there is an unconscious MIND."
It is 'sub'? No. It is a separate personality? No. Does it have individual thought? No.
Outside of conscious awareness does not equal "unconscious"
Make sense?
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 12:57 PM |
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brabhobr
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Quote:
[quote]I just tought of one question. How do you explain that embedded commands work while there is no subconcious?
Etienne |
Here is a quote from the post
"Yes there are things that are outside of our conscious awareness. That is why things like embedded commands and anchoring are powerful persuasion tools. That does not mean there is an unconscious MIND."
It is 'sub'? No. It is a separate personality? No. Does it have individual thought? No.
Outside of conscious awareness does not equal "unconscious"
Make sense?
[/quote]
Tom, this is really a fantastic post.
Being accustomed to the thought that there is an unconscious mind, I would like to better understand the idea that it would not exist, even though there would be things that could be outside of the conscious mind .
You say:
It is 'sub'? No. It is a separate personality? No. Does it have individual thought? No.
Where then would be these things that are outside the conscious mind? It would then be just a part of the mind as a whole?
Claudio
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 3:27 PM |
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caputmartem
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Quote:
[quote]I just tought of one question. How do you explain that embedded commands work while there is no subconcious?
Etienne |
Here is a quote from the post
"Yes there are things that are outside of our conscious awareness. That is why things like embedded commands and anchoring are powerful persuasion tools. That does not mean there is an unconscious MIND."
It is 'sub'? No. It is a separate personality? No. Does it have individual thought? No.
Outside of conscious awareness does not equal "unconscious"
Make sense?
[/quote]
So let me get this straight. With embedded commands and anchoring you are influencing the concious mind but doing this in such a low profile manner that the concious mind is not aware of it?
Etienne
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 4:59 PM |
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TomVizzini
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Quote:
So let me get this straight. With embedded commands and anchoring you are influencing the concious mind but doing this in such a low profile manner that the concious mind is not aware of it?
Etienne |
What I am saying is that it is a useless distinction. Outside of conscious awareness is not 'the' unconscious mind.
It is just something you are not aware of. You still hear it, see it and feel it.
I know this pops some people's mystic bubble. They want to be able to blame or credit an unconscious mind fotr their lives. The truth is...its just you.
Tom
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 6:22 PM |
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mattkendall
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I would love to have a chat with everyone about this on the live chat thing one day. I think this idea is very interesting however as a trained hypnotist I am still in the subconscious camp for the moment. However I am open to all ideas.
Lets arrange a talk about this.
Matt
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 19, 2007 at 8:05 PM |
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brabhobr
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Quote:
I would love to have a chat with everyone about this on the live chat thing one day. I think this idea is very interesting however as a trained hypnotist I am still in the subconscious camp for the moment. However I am open to all ideas.
Lets arrange a talk about this.
Matt |
This is an interesting point. How would then hypnoses work or even be defined without an uncouncious mind?
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 20, 2007 at 1:29 AM |
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Hans
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Quote:
Matt Wrote:
> Hi Tom
>
> Interesting comments about the subconscious and unconscious. I am
> open to all ideas about the role of each, and even if they exist.
>
> I am a clinical hypnotherapist and although I have been taught in a
> certain way, I am more than willing to learn different methods.
> BAsically anything that can help me learn more and get the best
> results for my clients, then I am all ears.
>
> Is any of this covered in the DVDs I am getting at all? If not can
> you make some more posts about it?
Sure.....It is not on the DVDs and some of the DVDs are old enough to include references to the unconscious mind, which I no longer accept.
Through all the years of my study and research into hypnosis and other stuff I was always bothered by the idea that there was this separate mind.
It was often described as unconscious or subconscious. It was also given amazing powers like total infallible recall, super awareness, control of all body functions and so forth. I was enthralled with the idea of getting control of this powerful part of my mind.
I began running into a few problems with the theory of the unconscious.
The first was that the unconscious is a brilliant. If that was so then why did it screw so many people up? People had such destructive behaviors, phobias, diseases and anxieties.
Second was that the unconscious can recall everything you ever did....perfectly. If that was true them how come there are so many false memory cases generated from well meaning hypnotherapists?
Third was my irritation at constantly being told that it was not important that my conscious mind understood something and that my unconscious got it. Complete bull.
Fourth were the obvious misstatements that the unconscious mind controlled things like heartbeat and breathing. This would dismiss the entire autonomic nervous system.
This led me down and interesting path. to start down this path I decided to get rid of the idea that there was an unconscious or subconscious mind. Without that there was no ability to credit or blame anything on the unconscious mind. So if it was not that then what could it be?
I came up with 2 paths to follow.
The first was the study of altered states of consciousness rather than the idea of an all seeing unconscious. What I found was this. In order to access certain abilities that you had to enter identifiable altered states.
In order to read and retain information it is easier to define and direct an altered state that accesses that skill instead of thinking about turning it over to your unconscious mind.
These states hold the keys that open the door to skills like photo reading, rapport, accelerated health, awareness enhancement, self examination and behavior alteration.
So there is no mysterious and all powerful unconscious mind that controls these skills. It is a simple product of being taught to access the states that allow you to enjoy these skills.
The second path I followed was how to look at personal change without the idea that there was an unconscious mind that had a reason for the behaviors.
This led me to look at neuro science and the biological operation of the physical brain.
This was simplified for us when we met Dr. Ken. Ken showed us a very simple and easy to understand model of the brain that showed something amazing. It showed us how beliefs, states, behaviors and reactions were generated.
There was no mysterious little man or mind that was operating and keeping track of thousands of bits of information. Instead there was a simple reason for problems. There was a simple reason that some people succeeded while other people failed. There was a simple reason why some things got short lived results while other got none.
It boils down to one simple concept. That concept is that 2 parts of the brain come into play when it comes to behaviors and problems. They are the reactive part and the creative/adaptive part.
Problems occur when there is any disconnect between these 2 parts.
It is just that simple!
Reaction without thought is a problem.
Creation without movement is a problem
The key to any personal change or enhancement is to have a balance between these 2 parts of the brain.
There is no unconscious mind in this model.
This is the basis and foundation of the 3D mind process. It is what makes it so powerful.
I met Dr Ken in New York at a seminar I was presenting at. he approached us during a break and said he knew why the 3D Mind was working. So we went to lunch and Ken spent the next 2 hours opening the door that we had been banging on for 2 years.
That was 3 years ago.
What did this mean? Well first it meant that I could forget anything that did not have the result of generating a balanced condition for the brain.
That means any desensitization technique was out. Direct hypnotic command was out. Affirmations were out. Linguistic gymnastics were out. Re patterning was out. Anything that just gave someone a new reaction or pattern was out. Anchoring for personal change was out. Psychotherapy was out.
In other words, 95% of everything that I had spent 20 years learning was suddenly and shockingly....invalid.
The keyword for change was now "balance". It brought me back to some things that we had studied early on. What we were now looking at more closely resembled Chinese Medicine philosophy rather than anything else.
What was even better was that this model can conform to any other model and be utilized. You could use trance and the 3D mind together. It was not needed but it can be used.
The best part was this. Most people could learn to us the 3D Mind in one hour and start getting results.
All of this from taking one small step. That step was rejecting the model of the unconscious mind and looking for other explanations. We could not have gotten where we are while staying attached to the idea of an unconscious mind.
Yes there are things that are outside of our conscious awareness. That is why things like embedded commands and anchoring are powerful persuasion tools. That does not mean there is an unconscious MIND.
What I have found is this. Most models that I have found that are built on the premise that there is an unconscious mind seem to get very sporadic results.
I think it is time to re examine those models and see how they can be improved using real biology instead of unconscious mythology.
Have fun
Tom
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Great post Tom. Until you started questioning the unc. mind I also accepted it. But recently I heard a Bandler induction where he talks about "that part of your mind that keeps your heart beating... (etc.)" and it seemed odd. I thought that that was simply a function of your body, not your mind.
Also, I started examining my own functioning and it seemed like the stuff that they claimed to have installed unconsiously was simply put there outside my awareness. I guess that's how hypnosis works.
Hans
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 20, 2007 at 8:27 AM |
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TomVizzini
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Quote:
Great post Tom. Until you started questioning the unc. mind I also accepted it. But recently I heard a Bandler induction where he talks about "that part of your mind that keeps your heart beating... (etc.)" and it seemed odd. I thought that that was simply a function of your body, not your mind.
Also, I started examining my own functioning and it seemed like the stuff that they claimed to have installed unconsiously was simply put there outside my awareness. I guess that's how hypnosis works.
Hans
|
I think the real problem with the model of the unconscious mind is that it has gotten so many people stuck in that one way of thinking.
Anyone who thinks that there is a mind involved in the function of the heartbeat is ignorant on the subject of how the brain actually works.
Even now there are still people who think that the brain is just like a computer and that all you have to do is reprogram it. That is an outdated model of the brain that no longer holds any water.
The result of using the UM model (Unconscious Mind) is that we have a whole generation of hypno-therapists that can't think outside the box when it comes to how to help someone change.
Not all of them are as open minded as Matt 
The question that sets my mind in motion is: If it is not an UM, then what could it be?
The answer is amazing. What you get is that the mind is much easier to understand than we though. It is also much more interconnected. It moves like a weather system not a computer. One belief can generate hundreds of symptoms.
These symptoms are reactions to the belief. If you get into the trap of using hypnosis to just reprogram each symptom, it could take years to get to just a few. Even then the weather than generated the problem would still be there generating more. 
Does this invalidate hypnosis? No. What it does is change how you apply hypnosis and trances so that you get better results.
Hypnosis is a great tool. I think we need to find new ways to apply it without the UM model.
Tom
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 20, 2007 at 9:11 AM |
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TomVizzini
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Quote:
This is an interesting point. How would then hypnoses work or even be defined without an uncouncious mind? |
It is a good question and I think the answer is that hypnosis is not defined by the UM. Begin to think of hypnosis as the key that opens the door. That allows you to use trance states to explore.
I think of it like this. When I take my car in the hook it up to a computer to diagnose the problem. It sees how the engine it running and can even see each cylinder's performance.
If there is a bag spark plug then you have to get a wrench and replace it.
Then you check again using the diagnosis computer.
What you would not do is use a wrench to diagnose the problem or the computer to get the plug out.
Each tool has a place. The trik is to use the tools in the most efficient way possible.
The use of hypnosis does not depend on there being an UM.
Make sense?
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 20, 2007 at 3:50 PM |
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mattkendall
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My head hurts. Yes I understand what you are saying, but have a problem with the above description. You say that hypnosis doesn't need a subconscious mind, so then in that case what is it that you are communicating with in hypnosis? As you are communicating with something more than the conscious mind, so wouldn't this me the subconsonscious?
Matt
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 20, 2007 at 4:14 PM |
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TomVizzini
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Quote:
My head hurts. Yes I understand what you are saying, but have a problem with the above description. You say that hypnosis doesn't need a subconscious mind, so then in that case what is it that you are communicating with in hypnosis? As you are communicating with something more than the conscious mind, so wouldn't this me the subconsonscious?
Matt |
Do I get points for making you think? 
You are still thinking like a hypnotist. Move a bit past that and think like a researcher.
Why does there have to be a thing that you are communicating with that is different than the mind you started communicating with?
Think in terms of altered states instead of communication with an UM. When you relax are you relaxing by communicating with the unconscious mind? No.
You are just relaxing.
Think of the brain and not the mind. The 3D mind videos will present a model of the brain that is different than what you are used to. You don't need to communicate with an UM. You need to retrain the brain to think in a way that allows it to adapt by using and generating resources.
So what are you communicating with?.... a person's whole brain instead of the reaction.
That ought to give you more to think about 
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Dec 20, 2007 at 4:35 PM |
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mattkendall
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Ah I like this. Well as my big box of DVDs arrived this morning I shall be watching them all over Xmas as I have no idea what the 3D mind is actually about at present. James just told me it was great so I bought it.
Matt
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Jan 5, 2008 at 8:07 PM |
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matador79
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Hi Tom,
This idea of the lack of an unconscious or subconscious mind is really interesting. As you put it, it's all about states of mind/ states of consciousness; add to this the scientific fact that all behavior is state dependent and you have the makings of a new powerful theory of the mind. The existence of the sub-conscious mind has been around since the days of Freud, and it seems it was taken for granted since.
There isn't really a separate "subconscious" mind, there's only one "mind" that has various capabilities based on the state it's in. What I also like about the 3D mind is how it goes back to basics of balance. For example when a human being is healthy, everything is in biochemical balance. The moment something is out of balance (i.e. you have too much of something or you lack something) you are no longer healthy.
I was reading this article about "sub-personalities" and all through it, I kept thinking back to how each of these supposed "sub-personalities" are really just states of mind where certain behaviors or responses become available. You change the state, at it's core, and you no longer get the behavior.
Simple.
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Jan 5, 2008 at 8:07 PM |
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matador79
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sorry dupe post
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Jan 6, 2008 at 1:42 PM |
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TomVizzini
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Quote:
Hi Tom,
This idea of the lack of an unconscious or subconscious mind is really interesting. As you put it, it's all about states of mind/ states of consciousness; add to this the scientific fact that all behavior is state dependent and you have the makings of a new powerful theory of the mind. The existence of the sub-conscious mind has been around since the days of Freud, and it seems it was taken for granted since.
There isn't really a separate "subconscious" mind, there's only one "mind" that has various capabilities based on the state it's in. What I also like about the 3D mind is how it goes back to basics of balance. For example when a human being is healthy, everything is in biochemical balance. The moment something is out of balance (i.e. you have too much of something or you lack something) you are no longer healthy.
I was reading this article about "sub-personalities" and all through it, I kept thinking back to how each of these supposed "sub-personalities" are really just states of mind where certain behaviors or responses become available. You change the state, at it's core, and you no longer get the behavior.
Simple. |
Yes it really is simple. Most new research on the brain seems to be showing that the previous metaphors about he brain are all wrong.
This old unconscious mind crap generated something to blame for your problems...
Balance is the key.
I will have some video blogs later this week to address several of these things.
You said it all......Simple
Tom
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Jan 6, 2008 at 7:45 PM |
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matador79
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Posts: 12
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View All Posts By matador79
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I did have a question though.
I recently ordered the Magical Rapport and Calibration/Trance DVDs and they seemed to be a little older compared to the 3D Mind DVD. You still made references to the unconscious mind and passing the skills over to it. How does this new theory change those notions? How do you take a skill and become "unconsciously competent" at it How can you apply the 3D mind theory to learning new skills?
P.S. I've been trying to get in the Gold Member area, and have already tried twice through the one month free link, but still I can't get in. I've already emailed you about it.
Ergest
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Jan 7, 2008 at 10:32 AM |
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TomVizzini
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Joined: Dec 11, 2003
Last Visit: May 16, 2008
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View All Posts By TomVizzini
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Hi Ergest,
When viewing the older stuff just remember that we are using the unconscious as a metaphor not a real part of the brain.
Unconscious competence is really just practicing enough to help the brain predict what has to happen next.
I have seen the gold member applications and I am not sure why it is not working. Let me look into it today
Tom
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| Re: The Myth of the Unconscious Mind |
| Posted On Jan 11, 2008 at 12:15 PM |
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matador79
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Joined: Jan 1, 2008
Last Visit: May 5, 2008
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